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LEGENDA SEVEN SLEEPERS

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LEGENDA SEVEN SLEEPERS

Post by Syalom aleykhem on Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:09 am

First topic message reminder :


ADA KESETARAAN LEGENDA SEVEN SLEEPERS DENGAN KISAH ASHHAB AL-KAHFI DALAM ALQURAN

Kisah legenda ”The Seven Sleepers of Efesus” bermula dari sebuah katakombe di Efesus. Kisah ini muncul untuk menarik peziarah datang ke Efesus


Saat versi kisah yang paling awal mulai tersebar dari kota Efesus, sebuah katakombe kuno dihubungkan dengannya, untuk menarik peziarah. Di lembah gunung Pion (Coelian) dekat Efesus (dekat kota Seljuk di Turki modern). Gua Seven Sleepers dengan reruntuhan gereja yang dibangun diatasnya digali ditahun 1927 – 28. Penggalian menghasilkan beberapa ratusan kuburan yang bertarik hingga abad ke 5 dan 6 masehi. Inskripsi yang ditujukan bagi Seven Sleepers ditemukan didinding gereja dan didalam kuburan

Katakombe sendiri adalah merupakan ruang bawah tanah yang digunakan untuk tempat penguburan sekaligus pengungsian sementara dan peribadatan.

Katakombe adalah kuburan kuno bawah tanah yang digunakan oleh Kristen dan Yahudi di Roma. Katakombe Kristen yang terbanyak, bermula diabad kedua hingga paruh pertama abad kelima. Awalnya katakombe digunakan sebagai tempat penguburan. Disini orang-orang Kristen berkumpul untuk melakukan ibadah penguburan, peringatan terhadap para martir dan mereka yang telah meninggal. Selama masa penganiayaan, dalam kasus-kasus luar biasa, katakombe digunakan sebagai tempat perlindungan sementara untuk pelaksanaan ekaristi.

Jadi dari sebuah katakombe terdapatlah elemen-elemen yang membentuk kisah legenda tersebut, yaitu :
1. Adalah tempat penguburan orang-orang Kristen yang dianggap suci
2. Adalah tempat pengungsian sementara saat masa penganiayaan

Catatan tertulis yang paling tua adalah dari versi Syria yang dilakukan oleh Jacob dari Seruq yang meninggal tahun 521 M.

Kisah legenda ini muncul dalam beberapa versi Syria sebelum era Gregory (538 M – 594 M.) Kisah itu diceritakan ulang oleh Symeon Metaphrastes (dalam bahasa Yunani). Kisah Seven Sleepers muncul dalam bentuk homily oleh penyair dari Edessa yaitu Yakob dari Saruq (meninggal 521 M), yang diterbitkan dalam Acta Sanctorus. Versi lain di abad ke 6, dalam tulisan Syria tersimpan di British Museum (Cat Syr. Mss, p. 1090), menyebutkan 8 orang

Kemudian diterjemahkan dalam bahasa Latin oleh Gregory dari Tours (538 M – 17 November 594). Tours sendiri adalah sebuah kota yang terletak di Perancis tengah

Kisah legenda dengan cepat mengalami difusi dalam abad-adab kekristenan, dipopulerkan dibarat oleh Gregory dari Tours, dalam koleksi mujizatnya di akhir abad ke enam, De Gloria Martyrum (Glory of The Martyrs). Gregory menyatakan bahwa dia memperoleh bahan legenda dari “seorang Syria”

Jadi kisah legenda ini sudah muncul sebelum era Muhammad SAW memulai dakwahnya di Mekah sekitar tahun 610 M yaitu :
- di Syria setidaknya sebelum tahun 521 M atau sekitar 90 tahun sebelum Muhammad SAW memulai dakwahnya
- di Perancis setidaknya sebelum tahun 594 M atau sekitar 16 tahun sebelum Muhammad SAW memulai dakwahnya.

Dan Muhammad SAW tercatat memang pernah melakukan perjalanan dagang ke Syria. Jadi karena sudah ada hubungan dagang antara Mekah dengan Syria maka tidaklah mengherankan jika kisah ini sudah tidak asing lagi bagi masyarakat di semenanjung Arab


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Re: LEGENDA SEVEN SLEEPERS

Post by dee-nee on Wed May 27, 2015 2:51 pm

Literary Sources

If the story of the Seven Sleepers was to have a firm basis in fact, we would expect that such a marvelous revelation would have been disseminated throughout the world in a relatively brief time. Historical facts clearly demonstrate that this indeed is precisely what happened. By the close of the sixth century the tradition can be demonstrated to have been known from Ireland to Persia, from Ethiopia to the Scandinavian countries. Because of all these early widespread beliefs in the tradition, scholars concede that the first written version of the tradition must have been composed within a single generation of the event itself, to explain its early widespread circulation.

Sumber Literatur

Jika kisah Seven Sleepers memiliki dasar yang kuat sebagai kenyataan (bukan dongeng), kita berharap wahyu yang luar biasa seperti itu dapat disebarluaskan ke seluruh dunia dalam waktu yang relatif singkat. Fakta sejarah jelas menunjukkan bahwa semua hal tersebut memang tepat apa yang terjadi. Pada akhir abad keenam, tradisi2 (tersebut) dapat dibuktikan dan telah dikenal dari Irlandia ke Persia, dari Etiopia ke negara-negara Skandinavia. Karena adanya tradisi2 terkait keyakinan tersebut, para ulama (ilmuwan) mengakui bahwa versi tulisan pertama dari tradisi tersebut sudah disusun dalam satu generasi terkait tradisi itu sendiri, untuk menjelaskan bagaimana asal mula meluasnya tradisi tersebut.


The miracle of the Seven Sleepers was apparently first described by Bishop Stephen of Ephesus (448-51).[1] It seems the miracle occurred during the bishopric of Basil (+443), who was preceded by Memnon and succeeded by Bassian (444-448), though it may have occurred during the bishopric of Memnon who also was bishop of Ephesus during the Third Ecumenical Synod. Anyone familiar with the christological controversy during this time period, as well as the administrative conflicts taking place in Ephesus among the four bishops mentioned above,[2] will understand why it took approximately fourteen years for the story of the Seven Sleepers to be recorded. However, fourteen years in antiquity for a story to be recorded is a very short time period, especially when one considers that it was never disputed by anyone. Furthermore, the memory of Bishop Stephen was condemned at the Fourth Ecumenical Synod, and since Ephesus was in bad repute due to the Robber Synod of 449, the circumstances seemed to have been changed due to the offending name and date in later versions of the tale.[3]

Keajaiban Seven Sleepers pertama kali dijelaskan oleh Bishop Stephen of Ephesus (448-51). Tampaknya keajaiban tersebut terjadi selama keuskupan Basil (+443), yang didahului oleh Memnon dan digantikan oleh Bassian (444 -448), meskipun kemungkinanannya juga terjadi selama keuskupan Memnon yang juga adalah Uskup Efesus selama Ecumenical Synod Ketiga. Siapa pun yang akrab dengan kontroversi kristologis selama periode ini, serta konflik administrasi yang terjadi di Efesus antara empat uskup yang disebutkan di atas, akan memahami mengapa butuh sekitar empat belas tahun kisah Seven Sleepers dicatat. Namun, empat belas tahun di zaman tersebut adalah periode waktu yang sangat singkat dalam hal pencatatan sebuah cerita, terutama ketika kita menyadari hal tersebut tidak pernah dibantah oleh siapa pun. Selanjutnya, memori Uskup Stephen pernah dikritik selama Ecumenical Synod Keempat, dan karena Efesus bereputasi buruk terkait Perampokan Sinode thn 449, keadaan menjadi berubah khususnya terkait nama dan tanggal di versi cerita selanjutnya.

The miracle is reported to be timely because it answered a dispute going on concerning the resurrection of the dead. The Origenist controversy began in the late fourth century and by 434 had spread into Asia Minor from Egypt. Origenists denied the resurrection of the flesh, and when Bishop Stephen records that the bishop of the time regarded this miracle of the Seven Sleepers as an answer to the controversy, it seems to have prevented Origenism from being established in Ephesus. Since theological debates of various sorts were common during this time period, it is little doubted that this part of the tale could be true.

Disebutkan bahwa adanya keajaiban tersebut (cerita tentang Seven Sleepers) muncul di saat yang tepat karena menjawab perselisihan yang terjadi terkait peristiwa kebangkitan orang mati. Kontroversi Origenists dimulai pada akhir abad keempat dan pada tahun 434 telah menyebar ke Asia Kecil yaitu dari Mesir. Origenists membantah kebangkitan orang mati, dan ketika Uskup Stephen mencatat bahwa para uskup pada waktu itu mamandang mukjizat Seven Sleepers sebagai jawaban atas kontroversi yang terjadi, (hal tersebut) tampaknya untuk mencegah (bantahan) Origenism dari Efesus. Karena adanya berbagai macam perdebatan teologis yang umum terjadi selama periode ini, hal ini memungkinkan terjadinya keraguan bahwa bagian dari kisah tersebut adalah kenyataan.

In written form, the earliest purported source which survives today is by a Syrian bishop named Jacob of Sarugh (452-521). He had begun composing poetic homilies around 474, and one of them was specifically on the subject of the Sleepers. When exactly this specific homily was composed however is hard to determine. This being the case, it is difficult to determine if he indeed is our earliest source.

Bishop Zachariah of Mitylene was a Monophysite who some time between 491 and 518 wrote his Ecclesiastical History in Syriac while residing in Constantinople and mentions the Seven Sleepers. In Book 2, chapter 1 he states: "I was able to discover from records and Acts or from letters, — truth that was carefully examined, — I shall set down here the truth of the resurrection, which took place in the days of Theodosius the king, of the bodies of the seven youths who were in a cave in the district of Ephesus, and the Syriac records; both to keep them in the memory of the saints and for the glory of God, Who is able to do all things." What these references he refers to are not exactly known, but his intention to carefully examine the truth should be noted. It seems that there were many written records of the Seven Sleepers before him that no longer exist. However it could be that Jacob of Serugh first heard of the Seven Sleepers through Zachariah.

Theodosius the Pilgrim, in his De situ terrae sanctae, records sometime between 518 and 538 of visiting the tomb of the Seven Sleepers. He refers to it as the "Shrine of the Seven Sleepers".

Bishop John of Ephesus (c. 507 - c. 586) recorded the tale of the Seven Sleepers in his Ecclesiastical History as a historical fact that happened in his own city a century earlier. He wrote his history in Syriac, having been born in Amid north of Mesopotamia, and is considered to be very accurate in his historical approach as well as attention to details.

The earliest extant version in the Latin West dates from about 525 by a deacon named Theodosius. St. Gregory of Tours gave a complete Latin account in his Gloria Martyrum a few years later. Gregory is said to have received this tale from a Syrian, though his Latin account seems to be of Greek origin.

Interestingly the Koran, written in the early seventh century, includes the story of the Seven Sleepers in a chapter titled "The Cave" (al-Kahf). It adds important details that they were accompanied by a dog and they were asleep for 309 years. However the Muslims did not acknowledge Ephesus to be the site of the cave of the Seven Sleepers, which they called Afsis in Arabic, but the similar sounding Afsus near Elbistan in southeastern Asia Minor. They obviously chose Afsus because it was well within reach of Arab territory, whereas Ephesus was under their enemy the Romans.

Pilgrimage


A brick church was built above the seven original tombs, with mosaic floors and marble revetments by Emperor Theodosius. A large, domed mausoleum was added to the cave in the 6th century. Frescoes on the walls and vaults are mainly vegetal decorations.

As we might expect, pilgrimages to the site of the cave were extremely popular through the end of the fifteenth century, as is evidenced from the graffiti on the walls in both Latin and Greek. It also became a favored spot of burial in Late Antiquity. Theodosius on his pilgrimage in the sixth century saw the tombs of the Seven Sleepers and according to a ninth century writer, visitors to the cave were shown seven uncorrupt bodies. The 12th century Russian pilgrim Daniel saw the same. Daniel also says that many were buried there.

Although pilgrimages can be shown throughout the medieval centuries, the most famous was probably one sponsored by the last Anglo-Saxon king of England, Edward the Confessor, in response to a vision. The story of this particular pilgrimage to Ephesus was to be forever immortalized in a stone frieze in the chapel dedicated to Edward the Confessor at Westminster Abbey.

Archaeology

At the archaeological site of Ephesus, a well-paved road heading east of the Vedius Gymnasium leads to the Cave of the Seven Sleepers, about .8km (1/2 mile) away. The grotto associated with the Seven Sleepers, is located on the eastern slope of Panayirdag hill.

In 1926, research by the Austrian Archaeological Institute uncovered the ruins of the basilica of the Seven Sleepers (built above the cave) which permitted them to specify the date. It dates back to the middle of the fifth century. Archeology was able to confirm implicitly the literary date for this tale.

Excavations were carried out in the Cave of the Seven Sleepers between 1927 and 1930. One of the most interesting features of the archaeological site is the treasure trove of over 2000 terracotta lamps that was discovered inside which were offerings to the church. They date primarily to the fourth and fifth centuries. Most of the lamps are decorated with a cross; others bear scenes from the Old Testament popular with Christians, such as Adam and Eve, Abraham and Isaac, and Daniel in the lions’ den. There are also a wide variety of secular scenes, such as fishermen and theatre performances. But alongside these are pagan religious scenes such as Hercules and the lion, Zeus and Aphrodite, pictures of temple facades, and the head of the god Attis. Were these lamps made and used by Ephesians who considered themselves Christians but retained pagan traditions, or did pagans join Christians in devotions at the Cave of the Seven Sleepers? The answer is not clear. Though we do know that Emperor Justinian did send Bishop John of Ephesus to remote areas of Asia Minor to stamp out paganism, during which he is said to have converted thousands.[4]

The main part of the complex is the cave church in which the Seven Sleepers slept and were buried. The large cave, with a ceiling as high as many regular churches, has been lined with brick masonry to form a church. There are arch niches on the sides and a rounded apse in the back. The burial places of the sleepers in the floor are now open, empty holes.

Modern Scholarship

For modern scholars, one of the most important debates deals with the origins of this tale, whether it is Greek or Syriac. According to A. Allgeier, I. Guidi, B. Heller, Th. Nöldeke, V. Ryssel, A. Krymski, etc. the hagiographical work was first written in Syriac, while M. Huber, P. Peeters and E. Honigmann insisted on the priority of certain Greek texts. What seems evident at this point and time is that the origin of this tale on the literary level is indeed Greek, as all the early authors (except Jacob of Serugh) gathered their information for this tale while living in or near the vicinity of Ephesus. Bishop Stephen of Ephesus almost certainly wrote the first history in Greek. However, some of these authors did write in Syriac, therefore, their histories, though of Greek origin, ventured east where they quickly became popular having been written in their own language. Though originally considered an Orthodox miracle, it was quickly acquired by the Syriac Monophysites.

In 1953 Ernest Honigmann defended the possible historicity of the account of the Seven Sleepers with considerable ingenuity following the archaeological and literary evidence. Honigmann established that this tradition was common to Melkite, Monophysite, Nestorian, and Jacobite Christians, and therefore precedes their division (5th and 6th centuries). Having examined all the historical records available as well as the archaeological evidence, Honigmann was able to form the final conclusion:

"From the time of Cardinal Baronius to this day no creedance has been given to this strange story; some critics spoke of 'deception and forgery'. Nevertheless there can be no doubt that, as we stated above, the report on the awakening of the seven youths must be based upon some historical fact. In the light of the archaeological evidence it now seems incontestable that about the middle of the fifth century seven young Ephesians really believed or tried to make others believe that they had been persecuted at the time of Decius, and that a high ecclesiastical dignitary, in a kind of enthusiastic self-deception, took their strange affirmation for granted, all the more providing him with the weapons which he needed for refuting certain heretics and making orthodoxy triumph."[5]

Conclusion

Nowadays it is proved, as Honigmann stated, that the basis for the story is a well attested historical fact. Indeed, F. Miltner, who was in charge of excavations undertaken at Ephesus in 1926 by the Austrian Archaeological Institute found reason to believe that the church he uncovered was built at about the middle of the fifth century. This church was found at the traditional site ascribed to it in ancient Ephesus. Textual criticism also led scholars to certain conclusions which seem to confirm the results attained by the archaeological discoveries. Though archaeology and textual criticism cannot verify the miracle behind the tale, they do verify that the tale does describe an actual historical event of seven young men appearing in the midst of the Ephesians and believed to be the source of a great miracle which confirmed for all the resurrection of the dead.
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Re: LEGENDA SEVEN SLEEPERS

Post by dee-nee on Wed May 27, 2015 2:53 pm

sisanya terjemahin sendiri ....
udah saya kasih tuh seluruh isi link .... ga pake image2an

untuk balasan #58 ... saya tulis setelah post ini
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Re: LEGENDA SEVEN SLEEPERS

Post by bukajalan on Thu May 28, 2015 9:57 pm

dee-nee wrote:lah si Syalom aleykhem nya aja udah minggat entah kemana
ngapain saya terjemahin ... bikin repot aja

anda aja terjemahin sendiri ... gimana ??

TS pun ga bisa kasih bukti apa2 tentang TS dia ...
wong copy paste-nya juga mungut dari warung tegal

pakai saja kesimpulan dari sumber web yang anda bawa
Conclusion

Nowadays it is proved, as Honigmann stated, that the basis for the story is a well attested historical fact. Indeed, F. Miltner, who was in charge of excavations undertaken at Ephesus in 1926 by the Austrian Archaeological Institute found reason to believe that the church he uncovered was built at about the middle of the fifth century. This church was found at the traditional site ascribed to it in ancient Ephesus. Textual criticism also led scholars to certain conclusions which seem to confirm the results attained by the archaeological discoveries. Though archaeology and textual criticism cannot verify the miracle behind the tale, they do verify that the tale does describe an actual historical event of seven young men appearing in the midst of the Ephesians and believed to be the source of a great miracle which confirmed for all the resurrection of the dead.
b & u
percaya saja dongengnya

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Re: LEGENDA SEVEN SLEEPERS

Post by dee-nee on Thu May 28, 2015 10:20 pm

bukajalan wrote:
dee-nee wrote:lah si Syalom aleykhem nya aja udah minggat entah kemana
ngapain saya terjemahin ... bikin repot aja

anda aja terjemahin sendiri ... gimana ??

TS pun ga bisa kasih bukti apa2 tentang TS dia ...
wong copy paste-nya juga mungut dari warung tegal

pakai saja kesimpulan dari sumber web yang anda bawa
Conclusion

Nowadays it is proved, as Honigmann stated, that the basis for the story is a well attested historical fact. Indeed, F. Miltner, who was in charge of excavations undertaken at Ephesus in 1926 by the Austrian Archaeological Institute found reason to believe that the church he uncovered was built at about the middle of the fifth century. This church was found at the traditional site ascribed to it in ancient Ephesus. Textual criticism also led scholars to certain conclusions which seem to confirm the results attained by the archaeological discoveries. Though archaeology and textual criticism cannot verify the miracle behind the tale,  they do verify that the tale does describe an actual historical event of seven young men appearing in the midst of the Ephesians and believed to be the source of a great miracle which confirmed for all the resurrection of the dead.
b & u
percaya saja dongengnya

terjemahan bold :

Meskipun arkeologi dan kritik tekstual tidak dapat memverifikasi keajaiban di balik kisah, mereka memverifikasi bahwa kisah tersebut memang menggambarkan suatu peristiwa sejarah yang sebenarnya dari tujuh laki-laki muda yang muncul di tengah-tengah Efesus

Artinya : walaupun arkeologi dan kritik tekstual tidak bisa menjelaskan tentang keajaiban dalam kisah tersebut .... tapi pada dasarnya mereka confirm bahwa kisah tersebut MEMANG menggambarkan suatu peristiwa sejarah yang sebenarnya dari tujuh laki-laki muda yang muncul di tengah-tengah Efesus

pake google translate itu jangan cuma copy paste .... dibaca lagi bener ga terjemahannya

kalau cuma copy paste ... google menterjemahkan kata does (yang merah) dengan kata "tidak" .... faktanya ... apakah does artinya tidak ?? ... kan ada option-nya bagaimana kata "does" itu harus diterjemahkan
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Re: LEGENDA SEVEN SLEEPERS

Post by bukajalan on Thu May 28, 2015 10:30 pm

dee-nee wrote:
bukajalan wrote:
dee-nee wrote:lah si Syalom aleykhem nya aja udah minggat entah kemana
ngapain saya terjemahin ... bikin repot aja

anda aja terjemahin sendiri ... gimana ??

TS pun ga bisa kasih bukti apa2 tentang TS dia ...
wong copy paste-nya juga mungut dari warung tegal

pakai saja kesimpulan dari sumber web yang anda bawa
Conclusion

Nowadays it is proved, as Honigmann stated, that the basis for the story is a well attested historical fact. Indeed, F. Miltner, who was in charge of excavations undertaken at Ephesus in 1926 by the Austrian Archaeological Institute found reason to believe that the church he uncovered was built at about the middle of the fifth century. This church was found at the traditional site ascribed to it in ancient Ephesus. Textual criticism also led scholars to certain conclusions which seem to confirm the results attained by the archaeological discoveries. Though archaeology and textual criticism cannot verify the miracle behind the tale,  they do verify that the tale does describe an actual historical event of seven young men appearing in the midst of the Ephesians and believed to be the source of a great miracle which confirmed for all the resurrection of the dead.
b & u
percaya saja dongengnya

terjemahan bold :

Meskipun arkeologi dan kritik tekstual tidak dapat memverifikasi keajaiban di balik kisah, mereka memverifikasi bahwa kisah tersebut memang menggambarkan suatu peristiwa sejarah yang sebenarnya dari tujuh laki-laki muda yang muncul di tengah-tengah Efesus

Artinya : walaupun arkeologi dan kritik tekstual tidak bisa menjelaskan tentang keajaiban dalam kisah tersebut .... tapi pada dasarnya mereka confirm bahwa kisah tersebut MEMANG menggambarkan suatu peristiwa sejarah yang sebenarnya dari tujuh laki-laki muda yang muncul di tengah-tengah Efesus

pake google translate itu jangan cuma copy paste .... dibaca lagi bener ga terjemahannya

kalau cuma copy paste ... google menterjemahkan kata does (yang merah) dengan kata "tidak" .... faktanya ... apakah does artinya tidak ?? ... kan ada option-nya bagaimana kata "does" itu harus diterjemahkan
optionnya
kalimat does describe diawali dengn pernyataan archaeology and textual criticism cannot verify the miracle behind the tale, maka kesimpulannya TIDAK MENGGAMBARKAN ...

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Re: LEGENDA SEVEN SLEEPERS

Post by dee-nee on Thu May 28, 2015 10:57 pm

bukajalan wrote:
optionnya
kalimat does describe diawali dengn pernyataan archaeology and textual criticism cannot verify the miracle behind the tale, maka kesimpulannya TIDAK MENGGAMBARKAN ...

Maksud yang bold itu : arkeologi dsb itu tidak bisa menjelaskan tentang KEAJAIBANNYA ... keajaiban tentang 7 orang yang tidur dalam gua sampai 300 thn itu loh >>> dari sudut pandang IP kan susah dibuktikan

Misalnya : kisah tentang Sodom dan Gomora >> versi teologi menjelaskan tentang murka Tuhan ... bentuk kekuasaan Tuhan dsb
dalam sudut pandang IP ... ditemukan bukti2 arkeologi bahwa memang ada bekas2 kota Sodom Gomora karena gunung meletus

Arkeolog jelas tidak bisa menjelaskan apakah Sodom dan Gomora hancur karena murka Tuhan atau sekedar kejadian alam ... apakah kota itu hancur karena penduduknya homo semua atau ga

>>> tapi apakah karena arkelog tidak bisa menjelaskan lalu anda tidak percaya bahwa kota itu memang hancur karena murka Tuhan ??
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Re: LEGENDA SEVEN SLEEPERS

Post by bukajalan on Thu May 28, 2015 11:13 pm

maka oleh sebab itu arkeologynya hanya menggambarkan soalan ini :

Archaeology

At the archaeological site of Ephesus, a well-paved road heading east of the Vedius Gymnasium leads to the Cave of the Seven Sleepers, about .8km (1/2 mile) away. The grotto associated with the Seven Sleepers, is located on the eastern slope of Panayirdag hill.

In 1926, research by the Austrian Archaeological Institute uncovered the ruins of the basilica of the Seven Sleepers (built above the cave) which permitted them to specify the date. It dates back to the middle of the fifth century. Archeology was able to confirm implicitly the literary date for this tale.

Excavations were carried out in the Cave of the Seven Sleepers between 1927 and 1930. One of the most interesting features of the archaeological site is the treasure trove of over 2000 terracotta lamps that was discovered inside which were offerings to the church. They date primarily to the fourth and fifth centuries. Most of the lamps are decorated with a cross; others bear scenes from the Old Testament popular with Christians, such as Adam and Eve, Abraham and Isaac, and Daniel in the lions’ den. There are also a wide variety of secular scenes, such as fishermen and theatre performances. But alongside these are pagan religious scenes such as Hercules and the lion, Zeus and Aphrodite, pictures of temple facades, and the head of the god Attis. Were these lamps made and used by Ephesians who considered themselves Christians but retained pagan traditions, or did pagans join Christians in devotions at the Cave of the Seven Sleepers? The answer is not clear. Though we do know that Emperor Justinian did send Bishop John of Ephesus to remote areas of Asia Minor to stamp out paganism, during which he is said to have converted thousands.[4]

The main part of the complex is the cave church in which the Seven Sleepers slept and were buried. The large cave, with a ceiling as high as many regular churches, has been lined with brick masonry to form a church. There are arch niches on the sides and a rounded apse in the back. The burial places of the sleepers in the floor are now open, empty holes.

terjemahan saja sudah ditafsirkan macem2, jadi kisah itu hanya legenda yang tidak bisa dibuktikan kebenaran kisahnya

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Re: LEGENDA SEVEN SLEEPERS

Post by dee-nee on Thu May 28, 2015 11:30 pm

bukajalan wrote:maka oleh sebab itu arkeologynya hanya menggambarkan soalan ini :

Archaeology

At the archaeological site of Ephesus, a well-paved road heading east of the Vedius Gymnasium leads to the Cave of the Seven Sleepers, about .8km (1/2 mile) away. The grotto associated with the Seven Sleepers, is located on the eastern slope of Panayirdag hill.

In 1926, research by the Austrian Archaeological Institute uncovered the ruins of the basilica of the Seven Sleepers (built above the cave) which permitted them to specify the date. It dates back to the middle of the fifth century. Archeology was able to confirm implicitly the literary date for this tale.

Excavations were carried out in the Cave of the Seven Sleepers between 1927 and 1930. One of the most interesting features of the archaeological site is the treasure trove of over 2000 terracotta lamps that was discovered inside which were offerings to the church. They date primarily to the fourth and fifth centuries. Most of the lamps are decorated with a cross; others bear scenes from the Old Testament popular with Christians, such as Adam and Eve, Abraham and Isaac, and Daniel in the lions’ den. There are also a wide variety of secular scenes, such as fishermen and theatre performances. But alongside these are pagan religious scenes such as Hercules and the lion, Zeus and Aphrodite, pictures of temple facades, and the head of the god Attis. Were these lamps made and used by Ephesians who considered themselves Christians but retained pagan traditions, or did pagans join Christians in devotions at the Cave of the Seven Sleepers? The answer is not clear. Though we do know that Emperor Justinian did send Bishop John of Ephesus to remote areas of Asia Minor to stamp out paganism, during which he is said to have converted thousands.[4]

The main part of the complex is the cave church in which the Seven Sleepers slept and were buried. The large cave, with a ceiling as high as many regular churches, has been lined with brick masonry to form a church. There are arch niches on the sides and a rounded apse in the back. The burial places of the sleepers in the floor are now open, empty holes.

terjemahan saja sudah ditafsirkan macem2, jadi kisah itu hanya legenda yang tidak bisa dibuktikan kebenaran kisahnya

lah makanya saya tanya ....

bila Arkeolog tidak bisa menjelaskan apakah Sodom dan Gomora hancur karena murka Tuhan atau sekedar kejadian alam ... apakah kota itu hancur karena penduduknya homo semua atau ga

menurut anda penduduk Sodom dan Gomora melanggar perintah Tuhan atau ga ?? >>> coba anda jawab ini dulu
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Re: LEGENDA SEVEN SLEEPERS

Post by bukajalan on Thu May 28, 2015 11:43 pm

saya mengerti maksud anda, dari hasil catatan & penemuan arkeology tidak bisa membuktikan kebenaran KISAHNYA bukan KEAJAIBANNYA
lagipula legendanya soal pengikut Isa-Almasih, bukan Allah swt yang anda sembah


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Re: LEGENDA SEVEN SLEEPERS

Post by dee-nee on Fri May 29, 2015 12:10 am

bukajalan wrote:
saya mengerti maksud anda, dari hasil catatan & penemuan arkeology tidak bisa membuktikan kebenaran KISAHNYA bukan KEAJAIBANNYA
lagipula legendanya soal pengikut Isa-Almasih, bukan Allah swt yang anda sembah

no no .... arkeologi tidak bisa membuktikan KEAJAIBANNYA .... tapi mereka bisa membuktikan KISAHNYA adalah benar

they do verify that the tale does describe an actual historical event of seven young men appearing in the midst of the Ephesians

mereka memberi verikasi bahwa kisah tersebut memang menggambarkan suatu peristiwa sejarah yang sebenarnya

... kenapa saya sambung ke Sodom dan Gomora

kisah ini tertulis dalam kitab suci ... kita meyakini cerita luth sebagai murka Tuhan ... kota itu hancur karena manusia melanggar perintah Tuhan

ada bukti arkeologi tentang kota Sodom dan Gomora >>> maka bisa dipastikan bahwa KISAH luth adalah fakta (bukan dongeng) ...

dilihat dari puing2 itu ... arkeolog bisa memberi verikasi bahwa kisah tersebut (kisah luth) memang menggambarkan suatu peristiwa sejarah yang sebenarnya

>>> tapi apakah kota itu hancur karena manusia melanggar perintah Tuhan >>>> tidak bisa dibuktikan oleh penemuan arkeologi

jadi samakan saja dengan 7 sleepers ....

------------------------------

merah : wah ... tentang pemilik kisah tersebut ... tanya aja sama rabbi2 yang bikin pertanyaan ke Muhammad >>> punya siapa kisah itu ??
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Re: LEGENDA SEVEN SLEEPERS

Post by abu hanan on Fri May 29, 2015 12:23 am

by mbdee :
tanya aja sama rabbi2 yang bikin pertanyaan ke Muhammad
>>> punya siapa kisah itu ??
wkwkwkwkwk..


untuk orang yang memaafkan walaupun ia mampu membalas
maka kembalilah kepada Tuhanmu dengan hati yang luas
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Re: LEGENDA SEVEN SLEEPERS

Post by bukajalan on Fri May 29, 2015 12:27 am

@dee-nee
maka kesimpulan boldmu : bahwa kisah tersebut TIDAK MENGGAMBARKAN suatu peristiwa sejarah yang sebenarnya, hanya legenda

bagaimana caranya saya tanya ke para rabi itu ?
kalaupun bisa pasti jawabnya : muhammad saw lagi mendongeng atau menciplak dongeng orang lain
merah !!... muntahkan saja sumber webmu itu ...



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Re: LEGENDA SEVEN SLEEPERS

Post by dee-nee on Fri May 29, 2015 1:05 am

bukajalan wrote:
@dee-nee
maka kesimpulan boldmu : bahwa kisah tersebut TIDAK MENGGAMBARKAN suatu peristiwa sejarah yang sebenarnya, hanya legenda

kok ngulang lagi ...

they do verify that the tale DOES describe an actual historical event of seven young men appearing in the midst of the Ephesians
mereka memberi verikasi bahwa kisah tersebut MEMANG menggambarkan suatu peristiwa sejarah yang sebenarnya

pake google translate itu jangan cuma copy paste .... dibaca lagi bener ga terjemahannya

kalau cuma copy paste ... google menterjemahkan kata does (yang merah) dengan kata "tidak" .... faktanya ... apakah does artinya tidak ?? ... kan ada option-nya bagaimana kata "does" itu harus diterjemahkan

anda yang terjebak oleh terjemahan google .... padahal google juga memberi option bagaimana kata DOES itu harus diterjemahkan

sejak kapan kata DOES (positive) diterjemahkan menjadi TIDAK (negative)
kalau DOES NOT ... baru diterjemahkan TIDAK

bukajalan wrote:bagaimana caranya saya tanya ke para rabi itu ?
kalaupun bisa pasti jawabnya : muhammad saw lagi mendongeng atau menciplak dongeng orang lain
merah !!... muntahkan saja sumber webmu itu ...

curhat mas ??

kan saya sudah bilang

tujuan saya menterjemahkan di thread sebelah HANYA untuk menunjukkan link kristen yang mendukung KEASLIAN kisah tersebut >>> kenapa mendukung .... ya baca aja sendiri ...

kebiasaan ... dari urusan asli vs dongeng .... bengkok ke urusan nyontek
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Re: LEGENDA SEVEN SLEEPERS

Post by bukajalan on Fri May 29, 2015 10:52 pm

@atas
soal kata DOES (positive) diterjemahkan menjadi TIDAK (negative) tergantung paralel kalimat sebelumnya, kan ?

sumber web/link yang anda tampilkan itu membuktikan kisah pengikut Yesus Kristus, bukan Allah swt, mba ini lagi mimpi ya ?

jadi beralasan curhatnya itu mengatakan : muhammad saw nyontek legenda itu


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Re: LEGENDA SEVEN SLEEPERS

Post by dee-nee on Sat May 30, 2015 9:13 am

bukajalan wrote:[justify]@atas
soal kata DOES (positive) diterjemahkan menjadi TIDAK (negative)  tergantung paralel kalimat sebelumnya, kan ?

Meskipun arkeolog TIDAK DAPAT membuktikan cerita dalam kisah Luth .... mereka memberi verikasi bahwa kisah tersebut MEMANG menggambarkan suatu peristiwa sejarah yang sebenarnya

jadi menurut anda kisah luth dongeng atau fakta ??

udah deh ... mending anda jawab pertanyaan saya ... biar cepet kelar gitu loh ....

bukajalan wrote:sumber web/link yang anda tampilkan itu membuktikan kisah pengikut Yesus Kristus, bukan Allah swt, mba ini lagi mimpi ya ?

jadi beralasan curhatnya itu mengatakan : muhammad saw nyontek legenda itu

clear-kan dulu urusan dongeng vs fakta >>> jawab pertanyaan saya yang bold
setelah itu baru masuk ke urusan contek mencontek

kasian banget kalian ini ... sudah tiga anak buah ali sina di thread ini yang ga bisa membuktikan TS
in the end ... tiga2nya pun ngeles dengan senjata "Muhammad nyontek"

habis nyampah di satu tempat ... bukannya dibersihin dulu
lanjut lagi nyampah di tempat lain


Terakhir diubah oleh dee-nee tanggal Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:14 pm, total 1 kali diubah
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Re: LEGENDA SEVEN SLEEPERS

Post by bukajalan on Sat May 30, 2015 9:24 am


- penemuan arkeolog sodom & gomora beda konsep, waktu, tempat, orang dll dgn arkeolog legenda itu ?, baca saja disini ..   http://www.cherubimsonline.com/print.php?StatPrint=1&Ext=xtn&FN=sodom&Ttl=SODOM%20AND%20GOMORAH:%20Pengungkapan%20Misteri,%20Apa%20Yang%20Terjadi%20Sebenarnya?&Qty=5

- sumber web/link yang anda tampilkan itu membuktikan kisah pengikut Yesus, bukan Allah swt. koq larinya ke alloh swt ?? , kalau bukan ketahuan nyontek kisahnya bukan web/linknya, update neng mikirnya !!



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Re: LEGENDA SEVEN SLEEPERS

Post by moderator 2 on Sat May 30, 2015 10:44 am

@Buka jalan
Baca aturan forum


Wajib diperbaiki
Akan jadi pertimbangan levelmu apabila masih melanggar
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Re: LEGENDA SEVEN SLEEPERS

Post by dee-nee on Sat May 30, 2015 1:07 pm

bukajalan wrote:[justify]
- penemuan arkeolog sodom & gomora beda konsep, waktu, tempat, orang dll dgn arkeolog legenda itu ?, baca saja disini ..   http://www.cherubimsonline.com/print.php?StatPrint=1&Ext=xtn&FN=sodom&Ttl=SODOM%20AND%20GOMORAH:%20Pengungkapan%20Misteri,%20Apa%20Yang%20Terjadi%20Sebenarnya?&Qty=5

1. ga bisa copy paste
2. website ga kasih source article apa2
3. website ga kasih direct link apa2 (home, kategori, artikel lain, dsb)

jadi gimana saya bisa cross check siapa penulisnya dsb ??

bukajalan wrote:- sumber web/link yang anda tampilkan itu membuktikan kisah pengikut Yesus, bukan Allah swt. koq larinya ke alloh swt ?? , kalau bukan ketahuan nyontek kisahnya bukan web/linknya, update neng mikirnya !!

jawab dulu

jadi menurut anda kisah luth dongeng atau fakta ??

habis nyampah di satu tempat ... bukannya dibersihin dulu
lanjut lagi nyampah di tempat lain
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Re: LEGENDA SEVEN SLEEPERS

Post by bukajalan on Mon Jun 01, 2015 7:18 pm

dee-nee wrote:
bukajalan wrote:[justify]
- penemuan arkeolog sodom & gomora beda konsep, waktu, tempat, orang dll dgn arkeolog legenda itu ?, baca saja disini ..   http://www.cherubimsonline.com/print.php?StatPrint=1&Ext=xtn&FN=sodom&Ttl=SODOM%20AND%20GOMORAH:%20Pengungkapan%20Misteri,%20Apa%20Yang%20Terjadi%20Sebenarnya?&Qty=5

1. ga bisa copy paste
2. website ga kasih source article apa2
3. website ga kasih direct link apa2 (home, kategori, artikel lain, dsb)

jadi gimana saya bisa cross check siapa penulisnya dsb ??  
search saja cherubimsonline.com

bukajalan wrote:- sumber web/link yang anda tampilkan itu membuktikan kisah pengikut Yesus, bukan Allah swt. koq larinya ke alloh swt ?? , kalau bukan ketahuan nyontek kisahnya bukan web/linknya, update neng mikirnya !!

dee-nee wrote:jawab dulu

jadi menurut anda kisah luth dongeng atau fakta ??

habis nyampah di satu tempat ... bukannya dibersihin dulu
lanjut lagi nyampah di tempat lain
DONGENG 7 pemuda tertidur panjang di efesus
jadi web yang jadi sumber referensimu dari sisi sejarah/arkeologi membuktikan hal-hal yang berhuhungan dgn pengikut Yesus Kristus atau alloh swt ?

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Re: LEGENDA SEVEN SLEEPERS

Post by dee-nee on Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:55 pm

bukajalan wrote:
dee-nee wrote:
bukajalan wrote:[justify]
- penemuan arkeolog sodom & gomora beda konsep, waktu, tempat, orang dll dgn arkeolog legenda itu ?, baca saja disini ..   http://www.cherubimsonline.com/print.php?StatPrint=1&Ext=xtn&FN=sodom&Ttl=SODOM%20AND%20GOMORAH:%20Pengungkapan%20Misteri,%20Apa%20Yang%20Terjadi%20Sebenarnya?&Qty=5

1. ga bisa copy paste
2. website ga kasih source article apa2
3. website ga kasih direct link apa2 (home, kategori, artikel lain, dsb)

jadi gimana saya bisa cross check siapa penulisnya dsb ??  
search saja cherubimsonline.com

search aja sendiri ... trus bawa ke sini ... kok nyuruh2 orang

bukajalan wrote:
dee-nee wrote:
bukajalan wrote:- sumber web/link yang anda tampilkan itu membuktikan kisah pengikut Yesus, bukan Allah swt. koq larinya ke alloh swt ?? , kalau bukan ketahuan nyontek kisahnya bukan web/linknya, update neng mikirnya !!

jawab dulu

jadi menurut anda kisah luth dongeng atau fakta ??

habis nyampah di satu tempat ... bukannya dibersihin dulu
lanjut lagi nyampah di tempat lain
DONGENG 7 pemuda tertidur panjang di efesus
jadi web yang jadi sumber referensimu dari sisi sejarah/arkeologi membuktikan hal-hal yang berhuhungan dgn pengikut Yesus Kristus atau alloh swt ?

jadi menurut anda kisah luth dongeng atau fakta ??

habis nyampah di satu tempat ... bukannya dibersihin dulu
lanjut lagi nyampah di tempat lain[


Terakhir diubah oleh dee-nee tanggal Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:15 pm, total 1 kali diubah
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Re: LEGENDA SEVEN SLEEPERS

Post by bukajalan on Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:03 pm

- kamu yang bertanya, saya kasi solusi
- ts legenda ... nyampah ke luth
lucunya legenda kristen mula-mula jadi pembuktian dongeng alloh swt, tape deh ...

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Re: LEGENDA SEVEN SLEEPERS

Post by dee-nee on Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:26 am

bukajalan wrote:- kamu yang bertanya, saya kasi solusi
- ts legenda ... nyampah ke luth
lucunya legenda kristen mula-mula jadi pembuktian dongeng alloh swt, tape deh ...

ga nyampah dong ... kan masih topik yang sama .... yaitu tentang dongeng vs fakta

cuma untuk membuktikan bahwa anda adalah manusia mencla mencle ...

jadi gimana ?? >>> menurut anda kisah luth dongeng atau fakta ??
ayo dong .... mana nyalinya ... jawab begitu aja lama banget

ehmm

untuk urusan kristen2an vs Allah SWT >>> apa hubungannya dengan topik dongeng vs fakta
anda mau bilang Muhammad nyontek kan ... itulah nyampah alias OOT

nyampah di tempat satu >>> setelah terbukti mencla mencle
nyampah lagi di tempat lain

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Re: LEGENDA SEVEN SLEEPERS

Post by bukajalan on Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:03 pm

waktu, tempat, orang dll sudah BEDA koq mau disamakan, MAKSA amat ...

terbukti legendanya hanya bicara soal pengikut Yesus Kristus, koq pembuktiannya keMAKSALOGI sejarah islam, tau diri slimah



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Re: LEGENDA SEVEN SLEEPERS

Post by dee-nee on Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:17 am

bukajalan wrote:[justify]waktu, tempat, orang dll sudah BEDA koq mau disamakan, MAKSA amat ...

terbukti legendanya hanya bicara soal pengikut Yesus Kristus, koq pembuktiannya keMAKSALOGI sejarah islam, tau diri slimah

Ga ada hubungannya dengan waktu, tempat, orang dsb ...
hubungannya adalah bagaimana anda memahami kalimat "Conclusion" dibawah ini

Meskipun arkeologi dan kritik tekstual tidak dapat memverifikasi KEAJAIBAN di balik kisah tersebut, mereka memverifikasi bahwa kisah tersebut memang menggambarkan suatu peristiwa sejarah yang sebenarnya dari tujuh laki-laki muda yang muncul di tengah-tengah Efesus

>>> anda kekeuh bahwa kalimat ini artinya 7 Sleepers adalah dongeng

maka ... dengan kalimat yang sama

Meskipun arkeologi dan kritik tekstual tidak dapat memverifikasi MURKA TUHAN di balik kisah tersebut, mereka memverifikasi bahwa kisah tersebut memang menggambarkan suatu peristiwa sejarah yang sebenarnya tentang kota Sodom dan Gomora

>>> jadi gimana ?? >>> menurut anda kisah luth dongeng atau fakta ??

kalau anda ga mencla mencle ... anda pasti akan bilang kisah Luth adalah dongeng juga
ya kan ???
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Re: LEGENDA SEVEN SLEEPERS

Post by bukajalan on Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:41 pm

dee-nee wrote:
bukajalan wrote:[justify]waktu, tempat, orang dll sudah BEDA koq mau disamakan, MAKSA amat ...

terbukti legendanya hanya bicara soal pengikut Yesus Kristus, koq pembuktiannya keMAKSALOGI sejarah islam, tau diri slimah

Ga ada hubungannya dengan waktu, tempat, orang dsb ...
hubungannya adalah bagaimana anda memahami kalimat "Conclusion" dibawah ini

Meskipun arkeologi dan kritik tekstual tidak dapat memverifikasi KEAJAIBAN di balik kisah tersebut, mereka memverifikasi bahwa kisah tersebut memang menggambarkan suatu peristiwa sejarah yang sebenarnya dari tujuh laki-laki muda yang muncul di tengah-tengah Efesus

>>> anda kekeuh bahwa kalimat ini artinya 7 Sleepers adalah dongeng

maka ... dengan kalimat yang sama

Meskipun arkeologi dan kritik tekstual tidak dapat memverifikasi MURKA TUHAN di balik kisah tersebut, mereka memverifikasi bahwa kisah tersebut memang menggambarkan suatu peristiwa sejarah yang sebenarnya tentang kota Sodom dan Gomora

>>> jadi gimana ?? >>> menurut anda kisah luth dongeng atau fakta ??

kalau anda ga mencla mencle ... anda pasti akan bilang kisah Luth adalah dongeng juga
ya kan ???
nuansanya cocokmology
MAKSA/sapu rata kisah luth dgn legenda2 lainnya
lagian itu sejarah dgn pembuktian arkeologi milik orang Kristen, koq klaim pembuktian islam, MAKSA lagi

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Re: LEGENDA SEVEN SLEEPERS

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